Post by wesowsley on Jan 23, 2010 10:54:33 GMT -5
Thanks so much for posting. I appreciate it.
1. I am not aware of any direct official dismissals of Dr. Mitchell's claims. If they exist, please post links so that I can educate myself. I can only say that NASA distances themselves from anyone who isn't with NASA anymore, and seeks public attention from their experience with NASA. I am thinking specifically of two cases, one was an Astronaut who left to do publicity work back in the late 90's for Enron (Can we say Doh!). Another is James Oberg, who, when I was involved with the organization, was something of a running joke with engineers. NASA is very clannish, and has the whole "Your with us or against us," thing going on. Once your out...your out. Unless of course you leave to work for a contractor making twice the cash. Then, you're kind of ok...it depends on your legacy with the agency.
I have personally only worked with one Apollo Astronaut and that was Tom Stafford of Apollo-Soyuz fame. He was head of the Stafford Commission who I provided comm/IT support for while they were in Russia. So I can't really comment on Dr. Mitchell's statements because I simply don't know.
3. I don't think I know everything that is going on. I don't think I know even 1% of what is going on. The point I was trying to make is that black budget programs (I am talking here specifically about programs related to NASA, and NASA only...I don't know about other stuff), that were in operation during my stint with the program (1997-2001) were all weapons delivery systems, and once they went black, then NASA had nothing to do with them anymore. Nothing pisses NASA off more than to do the research and development on a project, prove it works, and then have DOD swoop down and take ownership of it with not so much as a thank you...let alone reimbursement!
All I am trying to do in this forum is relate my experience. That's all. It is possible, I suppose for something to have been going on during my time with NASA that I wasn't aware of but I want to point out the mammoth effort it takes just to launch a space shuttle, let alone maintain and man the ISS. There are thousands of people, entire NASA centers that do nothing, every day 7 days a week but support that effort. So, if NASA was doing something else, I can promise you it isn't happening at MSFC, JSC, AMES, Goddard, Stennis, KSC, or headquarters!
One more thing on black budget programs. One of my best friends is in the upper echelons of NASA's contract management/business management departments. High enough that he's testified before Congress on several occasions. He assures me that with the exception of military stuff (Meaning weapons, special forces teams, etc...) some of the so-called "Black Budget" money...gets stolen or misappropriated. To quote him directly, "Never underestimate people's ability to misuse government funds and then use national security to cover their ass!"
NOW....all that being said. I want to separate that from the UFO issue. I began listening to Paratopia ( I am actually migrating from Book of Thoth and Culture of Contact), the Paracast, and other programs because I do think SOMETHING is going on. I don't know what that is but when I became interested in this subject, I figured out that I was in a position to try and find out some truth for myself. American Astronauts will not talk about this at all..or if they will and they know you, they will say that they don't know either (And I tend to believe them). Russian Cosmonauts on the other hand are very nonchalant about the subject. I asked one (Korzun) about the subject and his response was pretty much "Yeah, what about it..."
The UFO phenomena, what ever it is...does seem to be happening all over the world. I can speak specifically about two areas of the world, the Balkans which seem to be in the middle of a flap right now, and the Gulf Coast of the United States. (I joke I am Bi-Coastal, I am a native of Mobile, Alabama and have a home on the Black Sea Coast in Bulgaria...BTW, being from Mobile...don't even get me started on the Gulf Breeze thing, I could blab for hours).
Finally, and I will be quiet after this...the entire space program is littered with experience'rs (Is that a word). I really wanted to make that point. Even in the peripheral of the program (Example...CNN's Miles O'Brien is an experience'r). Don't think for one second that people with the organizations aren't looking into this subject, if not unofficially...and given the fact that information leeks out of NASA like a sieve (Again RE: NASA Watch), if NASA found something, you all would know about it.
BTW - if I make English mistakes...sorry about that. I am juggling between English, Russian, Bulgarian, and German...and I get confused sometimes about what is what in what language...if you know what I mean!
No I don't think that the current publicly viewable propulsion systems are all that exists.
In Fact check this out...
keelynet.com/energy/holt1.htm
Thought you might find this interesting. Also, please note that the Air Force's Advanced Lab for Propulsion or the "Propulsion Directorate" is at Wright-Patterson AFB. Interesting, Eh?
Am I the only one that has been researching the UFO subject that hasn't heard the name Alan C. Holt?
ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=4294827535
Look at the publication years of these reports! I am now on a mission to find this guy and find out what he thinks!
Garethb,
Not a problem, I understand that their are probably people out there who make themselves out to be something they are not. Just to let you know, I sent 5 emails full of attached documentation to Jeff yesterday but I haven't heard from him in reply. I assume he is off for the weekend, and celebrating Mother's day with his wife and son!
As far as the reporter goes...Miles O'Brien from CNN...part of my job at NASA was providing comm support to the PAO's (Public Affairs Officers) and getting Dial-Tone/Network Access to Press People who were in-country. It was in this capacity that I met Miles O'Brien. I don't want to make too much out of this...we aren't buddy-buddy or anything. I met him once, very nice guy, and that was it. But, for a while there post 2001, he and Soledad O'Brien (No relationship...just coincidental same last names) were the morning anchors for CNN. So it was cool to have met the guy before when he was the "Space" Reporter. I began to notice that he was slipping in UFO-related topics, culminating in his "In Search of Aliens," series. Some say that this is the work that got him fired from CNN after 16 years of working there but he denies that. I think he is going to PBS soon...but anyway, He and I follow each other on Twitter, and I asked him via twitter if he had every seen a UFO. (Quick side note...Miles is also a respected Pilot, and a "Aviation Expert"). He responded that he had in fact had a "Very close" experience and had seen a UFO that left him "Searching for answers.." This isn't insider info though...I know he has made several statements in public about his UFO experience(s).
As to your first question about public engagement by NASA on the subject, I have to be honest with you, the first thing that pops into my head is Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail were the guy says "Run away..Run away!" The PAO that I worked with the most, wouldn't engage me on the subject...everytime I brought it up he just laughed. In their defense though, in their business, one slip of the tongue and they are unemployed...so I can kind of sympathize with them...know what I mean? In the interest of disclosure (Yes I used that word...even though I loath it) I would tell you that I worked very closely with three NASA PAO's, Carlos Fontenot, Rob Navius and Kyle Herring. Rob and Kyle are still going but I am having problems locating Carlos now so he might not be in the program anymore. I worked occasionally with other PAO's but not enough to get to know them. Rob, Kyle, and Carlos all did long-term TDY's in Russia...that's how I got to know them.
Finally, I suppose you are right, well I know on the X-33/X-34 deal, you are definitely right there...once it goes black, then its out of NASA's hands. I wasn't privy or in D.C. for that deal (Not that I would have been in the first place...I am just a communications/information technology engineer), but I did experience some of the internal combustion that everyone in the agency felt when that project was taken over...lot's of people were pissed off about that one.
Still on the trail of Alan C. Holt...I know he's out there somewhere!
Look forward to the conversation with Jeff/Jer...should be interesting.
New thought on why there ISN'T a secret space program...and I can sum it up with one word...Hydrogen! Explanation? Glad you ask.
So, I will caveat what I am about to say with the fact that I am not a shuttle guy. I was a Phase 1 (NASA speak for MIR) and transition to implementing and early Phase 2 (ISS) guy. But here is a little factoid which I thought I would pass on.
So, the 2 main carriers or transporters of liquid Hydrogen in North America are Air Liquide (http://www.airliquide.com/) and Air Products (http://www.airproducts.com/index.asp) (Please note that the company's URLs are included for you fact checkers out there). To prove a point here, you just can't haul liquid hydrogen around in any old tank/trailer. You need the special trailers that will let off pressure (As hydrogen is moved it sloshes about causing a rise in atmospheric pressure inside the holding vessel). If that pressure isn't released then Hydrogen tends to...um...how to put...explode...think Hydrogen Bomb! If there are any chemists/physicists on this board they can probably explain this better than I can.
So I said all of that to say that the specialized trailers for this type of transportation are only made by one facility in all of North America and they cost over $500,000 each. (I know, chump change for the "Secret Space Program" with all of the black budget dough...no?). This is important because each trailer is made like a normal trailer and then the people go in and by-hand transform it into a liquid hydrogen container...so they can only put out so many, and this is measurable. 99% of those trailers go to...drum roll please....Air Liquide and Air Products, with the remainder going to the various other chemical and silicon manufacturers (i.e. Intel is a large Hydrogen consumer, as is AMD).
Point #2. It is very difficult to appreciate the behemoth that is a shuttle launch without a bit of perspective. NASA consumes Hydrogen in 2 main places...Stennis Space Center, and Kennedy. Sure, the other centers get a bit of Hydrogen for the science they do but those two centers REALLY consume the Hydrogen. Here is the point, at Stennis they test fire the engines. Last time I checked, Air Products had the contract to supply that Hydrogen for the test fires. (Lest we forget, the engines that fly the shuttle burn liquid hydrogen...basically). So, to supply Stennis with enough Hydrogen to test fire an engine...notice here 1 engine...it takes Air Products, committing its entire fleet of Hydrogen Carriers for two weeks (all of them running 24x7) to fill the sphere used to test fire. One test fire completely empties the sphere. All of that for one engine to burn for like 3 to 7 minutes.
Now for a shuttle launch, Air Liquide and Air Products share the responsibility, and commit their entire fleet of hydrogen carriers for 4 to 6 weeks (This is again 24x7) to get enough hydrogen down there to Kennedy to launch the shuttle.
Point #3...is really a continuation of point number 2. But probably the most important part. When NASA is preparing for a launch of the shuttle and receiving these shipments of hydrogen, every hydrogen manufacturer serviced by the two carriers dedicates its entire production to NASA. That would be just about ALL of the liquid hydrogen available in the United States and Canada (Don't know if they are hauling from Mexico but doubt it due to boarder restriction) get sold to NASA during that period of time.
I have actually talked to some of the guys who transport the hydrogen (Who don't get paid near enough might I add)...and they have relayed stories to me about their other clients getting pissed off because they can't get any hydrogen during the shuttle fueling operation. If memory serves me, this client they were talking about was Intel.
So to sum this up, to launch one shuttle it takes nearly all of the hydrogen available on the continent for either a month or up to six weeks. Brief explanation on the time issue, it depends on where Hydrogen is available in abundance. If its available anywhere east of the Mississippi River in large quantities then obviously it can transported faster...if it has to come from Canada and West of the Mississippi, it will take longer to transport.
I could go on ad infinitum on this but I will stop. In my mind, I am already hearing the objections to this; other fuel sources, solid rocket fuel, other propulsion devices, other vehicle options but think about this (And I will close...I promise), ANY secret space program would be using tons of hydrogen...and its usage within the USA and Canada is measurable and can be inventoried without a great deal of difficulty...and that usage just isn't there.
1. I am not aware of any direct official dismissals of Dr. Mitchell's claims. If they exist, please post links so that I can educate myself. I can only say that NASA distances themselves from anyone who isn't with NASA anymore, and seeks public attention from their experience with NASA. I am thinking specifically of two cases, one was an Astronaut who left to do publicity work back in the late 90's for Enron (Can we say Doh!). Another is James Oberg, who, when I was involved with the organization, was something of a running joke with engineers. NASA is very clannish, and has the whole "Your with us or against us," thing going on. Once your out...your out. Unless of course you leave to work for a contractor making twice the cash. Then, you're kind of ok...it depends on your legacy with the agency.
I have personally only worked with one Apollo Astronaut and that was Tom Stafford of Apollo-Soyuz fame. He was head of the Stafford Commission who I provided comm/IT support for while they were in Russia. So I can't really comment on Dr. Mitchell's statements because I simply don't know.
3. I don't think I know everything that is going on. I don't think I know even 1% of what is going on. The point I was trying to make is that black budget programs (I am talking here specifically about programs related to NASA, and NASA only...I don't know about other stuff), that were in operation during my stint with the program (1997-2001) were all weapons delivery systems, and once they went black, then NASA had nothing to do with them anymore. Nothing pisses NASA off more than to do the research and development on a project, prove it works, and then have DOD swoop down and take ownership of it with not so much as a thank you...let alone reimbursement!
All I am trying to do in this forum is relate my experience. That's all. It is possible, I suppose for something to have been going on during my time with NASA that I wasn't aware of but I want to point out the mammoth effort it takes just to launch a space shuttle, let alone maintain and man the ISS. There are thousands of people, entire NASA centers that do nothing, every day 7 days a week but support that effort. So, if NASA was doing something else, I can promise you it isn't happening at MSFC, JSC, AMES, Goddard, Stennis, KSC, or headquarters!
One more thing on black budget programs. One of my best friends is in the upper echelons of NASA's contract management/business management departments. High enough that he's testified before Congress on several occasions. He assures me that with the exception of military stuff (Meaning weapons, special forces teams, etc...) some of the so-called "Black Budget" money...gets stolen or misappropriated. To quote him directly, "Never underestimate people's ability to misuse government funds and then use national security to cover their ass!"
NOW....all that being said. I want to separate that from the UFO issue. I began listening to Paratopia ( I am actually migrating from Book of Thoth and Culture of Contact), the Paracast, and other programs because I do think SOMETHING is going on. I don't know what that is but when I became interested in this subject, I figured out that I was in a position to try and find out some truth for myself. American Astronauts will not talk about this at all..or if they will and they know you, they will say that they don't know either (And I tend to believe them). Russian Cosmonauts on the other hand are very nonchalant about the subject. I asked one (Korzun) about the subject and his response was pretty much "Yeah, what about it..."
The UFO phenomena, what ever it is...does seem to be happening all over the world. I can speak specifically about two areas of the world, the Balkans which seem to be in the middle of a flap right now, and the Gulf Coast of the United States. (I joke I am Bi-Coastal, I am a native of Mobile, Alabama and have a home on the Black Sea Coast in Bulgaria...BTW, being from Mobile...don't even get me started on the Gulf Breeze thing, I could blab for hours).
Finally, and I will be quiet after this...the entire space program is littered with experience'rs (Is that a word). I really wanted to make that point. Even in the peripheral of the program (Example...CNN's Miles O'Brien is an experience'r). Don't think for one second that people with the organizations aren't looking into this subject, if not unofficially...and given the fact that information leeks out of NASA like a sieve (Again RE: NASA Watch), if NASA found something, you all would know about it.
BTW - if I make English mistakes...sorry about that. I am juggling between English, Russian, Bulgarian, and German...and I get confused sometimes about what is what in what language...if you know what I mean!
No I don't think that the current publicly viewable propulsion systems are all that exists.
In Fact check this out...
keelynet.com/energy/holt1.htm
Thought you might find this interesting. Also, please note that the Air Force's Advanced Lab for Propulsion or the "Propulsion Directorate" is at Wright-Patterson AFB. Interesting, Eh?
Am I the only one that has been researching the UFO subject that hasn't heard the name Alan C. Holt?
ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=4294827535
Look at the publication years of these reports! I am now on a mission to find this guy and find out what he thinks!
Garethb,
Not a problem, I understand that their are probably people out there who make themselves out to be something they are not. Just to let you know, I sent 5 emails full of attached documentation to Jeff yesterday but I haven't heard from him in reply. I assume he is off for the weekend, and celebrating Mother's day with his wife and son!
As far as the reporter goes...Miles O'Brien from CNN...part of my job at NASA was providing comm support to the PAO's (Public Affairs Officers) and getting Dial-Tone/Network Access to Press People who were in-country. It was in this capacity that I met Miles O'Brien. I don't want to make too much out of this...we aren't buddy-buddy or anything. I met him once, very nice guy, and that was it. But, for a while there post 2001, he and Soledad O'Brien (No relationship...just coincidental same last names) were the morning anchors for CNN. So it was cool to have met the guy before when he was the "Space" Reporter. I began to notice that he was slipping in UFO-related topics, culminating in his "In Search of Aliens," series. Some say that this is the work that got him fired from CNN after 16 years of working there but he denies that. I think he is going to PBS soon...but anyway, He and I follow each other on Twitter, and I asked him via twitter if he had every seen a UFO. (Quick side note...Miles is also a respected Pilot, and a "Aviation Expert"). He responded that he had in fact had a "Very close" experience and had seen a UFO that left him "Searching for answers.." This isn't insider info though...I know he has made several statements in public about his UFO experience(s).
As to your first question about public engagement by NASA on the subject, I have to be honest with you, the first thing that pops into my head is Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail were the guy says "Run away..Run away!" The PAO that I worked with the most, wouldn't engage me on the subject...everytime I brought it up he just laughed. In their defense though, in their business, one slip of the tongue and they are unemployed...so I can kind of sympathize with them...know what I mean? In the interest of disclosure (Yes I used that word...even though I loath it) I would tell you that I worked very closely with three NASA PAO's, Carlos Fontenot, Rob Navius and Kyle Herring. Rob and Kyle are still going but I am having problems locating Carlos now so he might not be in the program anymore. I worked occasionally with other PAO's but not enough to get to know them. Rob, Kyle, and Carlos all did long-term TDY's in Russia...that's how I got to know them.
Finally, I suppose you are right, well I know on the X-33/X-34 deal, you are definitely right there...once it goes black, then its out of NASA's hands. I wasn't privy or in D.C. for that deal (Not that I would have been in the first place...I am just a communications/information technology engineer), but I did experience some of the internal combustion that everyone in the agency felt when that project was taken over...lot's of people were pissed off about that one.
Still on the trail of Alan C. Holt...I know he's out there somewhere!
Look forward to the conversation with Jeff/Jer...should be interesting.
New thought on why there ISN'T a secret space program...and I can sum it up with one word...Hydrogen! Explanation? Glad you ask.
So, I will caveat what I am about to say with the fact that I am not a shuttle guy. I was a Phase 1 (NASA speak for MIR) and transition to implementing and early Phase 2 (ISS) guy. But here is a little factoid which I thought I would pass on.
So, the 2 main carriers or transporters of liquid Hydrogen in North America are Air Liquide (http://www.airliquide.com/) and Air Products (http://www.airproducts.com/index.asp) (Please note that the company's URLs are included for you fact checkers out there). To prove a point here, you just can't haul liquid hydrogen around in any old tank/trailer. You need the special trailers that will let off pressure (As hydrogen is moved it sloshes about causing a rise in atmospheric pressure inside the holding vessel). If that pressure isn't released then Hydrogen tends to...um...how to put...explode...think Hydrogen Bomb! If there are any chemists/physicists on this board they can probably explain this better than I can.
So I said all of that to say that the specialized trailers for this type of transportation are only made by one facility in all of North America and they cost over $500,000 each. (I know, chump change for the "Secret Space Program" with all of the black budget dough...no?). This is important because each trailer is made like a normal trailer and then the people go in and by-hand transform it into a liquid hydrogen container...so they can only put out so many, and this is measurable. 99% of those trailers go to...drum roll please....Air Liquide and Air Products, with the remainder going to the various other chemical and silicon manufacturers (i.e. Intel is a large Hydrogen consumer, as is AMD).
Point #2. It is very difficult to appreciate the behemoth that is a shuttle launch without a bit of perspective. NASA consumes Hydrogen in 2 main places...Stennis Space Center, and Kennedy. Sure, the other centers get a bit of Hydrogen for the science they do but those two centers REALLY consume the Hydrogen. Here is the point, at Stennis they test fire the engines. Last time I checked, Air Products had the contract to supply that Hydrogen for the test fires. (Lest we forget, the engines that fly the shuttle burn liquid hydrogen...basically). So, to supply Stennis with enough Hydrogen to test fire an engine...notice here 1 engine...it takes Air Products, committing its entire fleet of Hydrogen Carriers for two weeks (all of them running 24x7) to fill the sphere used to test fire. One test fire completely empties the sphere. All of that for one engine to burn for like 3 to 7 minutes.
Now for a shuttle launch, Air Liquide and Air Products share the responsibility, and commit their entire fleet of hydrogen carriers for 4 to 6 weeks (This is again 24x7) to get enough hydrogen down there to Kennedy to launch the shuttle.
Point #3...is really a continuation of point number 2. But probably the most important part. When NASA is preparing for a launch of the shuttle and receiving these shipments of hydrogen, every hydrogen manufacturer serviced by the two carriers dedicates its entire production to NASA. That would be just about ALL of the liquid hydrogen available in the United States and Canada (Don't know if they are hauling from Mexico but doubt it due to boarder restriction) get sold to NASA during that period of time.
I have actually talked to some of the guys who transport the hydrogen (Who don't get paid near enough might I add)...and they have relayed stories to me about their other clients getting pissed off because they can't get any hydrogen during the shuttle fueling operation. If memory serves me, this client they were talking about was Intel.
So to sum this up, to launch one shuttle it takes nearly all of the hydrogen available on the continent for either a month or up to six weeks. Brief explanation on the time issue, it depends on where Hydrogen is available in abundance. If its available anywhere east of the Mississippi River in large quantities then obviously it can transported faster...if it has to come from Canada and West of the Mississippi, it will take longer to transport.
I could go on ad infinitum on this but I will stop. In my mind, I am already hearing the objections to this; other fuel sources, solid rocket fuel, other propulsion devices, other vehicle options but think about this (And I will close...I promise), ANY secret space program would be using tons of hydrogen...and its usage within the USA and Canada is measurable and can be inventoried without a great deal of difficulty...and that usage just isn't there.